Author: mike (---.187.123)
Date: 04-30-2002 10:23
Since this is a continuation, I'll quote Tadeusz' entire post before replying:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to make this my last post over her because this has gotten
too complicated for me to find the topic lines.
So Mike, If you want to continue, please open a new thread. Thanks.
I'm not RCC, and I think many of the things they do and teach are flat
wrong. But, I'm not RCC, so I'm not that familiar w/ them. I went to
a cousin's wedding once, does that count?
I'm not sure i can remember all your points in that first long para.,
but here goes.
1. A. Lusting after your wife...That is a positive duty. Be always
ravished with the wife of your youth(bad paraphrase) is in Proverbs, i
think.
B. Your body doesn't belong to you; it belongs to your wife.
C. Only under special circumstances are you to temporarily abstain from
sex since this leads to temptation.
D. The marriage bed is undefiled is another paraphrase, or maybe a
close quote.
E. Read Song of Solomon; its not really talking about orchards or
hunting deer in some of those passages.
G. I enjoy reading Andrew Greely, who is basically a Catholic priest
romance novelist. You might find it helpful. He has a wide variety of
styles in that some are more doom-laden and others are out and out
cheerful. I thinks he's trying to be all things to all...in a good way.
2. Once saved, always saved. A Christian is saved by grace, ---not of
works which we have done, but by his grace he saves us. --- Salvation
is simple and straightforward. "I'm wrong. Jesus is God who took care
of my wrong. Would you accept me, Jesus?" Then you're saved now and
forever. Your good works don't do anything to save you, or to keep you
saved. You were a German citizen, and expecting FDR to approve of your
hard work in a factory is a bit much.
But there is some discussion in Christian cicles as to whether once
saved we can feel pride in good accomplishments. I tend to think we can.
I know someone who had parents who thought complimenting the child was
wrong. This idea tends to provoke a cold fury in me. I think its
wicked. I think most baptist would say you ought to be grateful to God for
his grace which enabled you to do such, but that you can also be happy
w/ yourself.
I hope this helps some, (PS But If you want to continue on this or
others remember i'm sick of the scrolling time, and the finding time,
and all that.)
Taduesz
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay...
1. My mistake, I operated under the assumption you are Roman Catholic. Allow me to clarify a few things. First, the crazy ideas about human sexuality I posted (all sex as sinful) can be traced partially to the writings of Saint Paul, who did call all who were capable to a life of celibacy. He left marriage only for those who would fall to temptation without it. Second, your Christian denomination, whatever it may be, was a part of the Church that fathered the fanatic Origen (who castrated himself to avoid temptation) and Augustine (who declared even sex between husband and wife sinful). It wasn't until a thousand years later that the Protestant Reformation took place. So the history of your group can trace itself directly to the fanaticism I mentioned. The modern Catholic Church does not condemn sex between husband and wife either.
2. I feel compelled to clarify the Roman Catholic position, even if I no longer consider myself Catholic or Christian. Catholics do not believe that you can redeem yourself through deeds. They do believe that the act of trying as best as you can shows God your devotion, and God will save you for it. (Faith is also required.)
The Christian idea of being saved by faith runs counter to logic and experience in a number of ways. First, why would God create humans if He knew we would be so flawed that only His help saved us? Second, why give us free will to accept or reject faith AND free will to do good or evil, when the exercise of our will to do good or evil is irrelevant to our salvation? Third, does that mean that a faithful axe murderer can be redeemed while an atheist peacemaker will not?
My criticisms of the Catholic Church in this apply equally to almost every other Christian denomination. When I do good, when I worship God, when I please God, it is because of divine influence (inspiration, grace, etc...). When I do bad, even if it is partially due to the devil's influence, it is my fault. I can do nothing to earn my salvation. Heaven is an infinite distance from my reach, without God's help. But I can do plenty to earn my way into hell. There is no limit to the amount and variety of ways to damn myself.
I think your analogy of a german asking FDR to approve his factory work is dead wrong: at least there, if the German had slacked off, FDR would have been happy. This is like working in any factory when one guy runs every business in the planet. He'll have you killed if you screw up but he doesn't give any perks to the most creative or most dedicated workers. That's insane! That's sadistic! Oh wait... that's communism!
Even if you can feel pride after you're saved, the point remains: you are never allowed to forget that you are worthless without God. I used to not question this, but now I just flat out don't understand it. It's human - insecurely human, even - to want others to be constantly reminded how valuable and important you are. Why would God need, want, or even enjoy our adoration? "Glory hound" is an insult, right? We use it to describe people that want attention and publicity and will do anything to get it. Witness the Jerry Springer show. But you expect God to be the biggest glory hound of all, and even though it's bad for us it's good for Him? Why?
|
|
