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 Give Me Some EXAMPLES
Author: BrianB (---.pacbell.net)
Date:   07-20-2001 16:49

OK, I've been following this whole thing for a while.

The impression I'm getting is that the column is meant to deal with two issues:

1. Women Gamers
2. The depiction of women in games.

One thing really, really bugs me, because I just can't find any examples for myself.

Several times, it has been intimated that the role of women in game systems has been relegated to a subserviant, back seat role. The implication is that there is an inequity in the games themselves, rather than how they are played.

I find this unsupported in my experience. I can not think of any system I've ever read or played in that discrimnates against women in the game world. Certainly, there are players who show bias in how women are portrayed in their gaming sessions, and there are certainly enough cases of individual predjudices against female gamers, and just plain gooberiness. Some of the artwork in gaming materials may be of questionably juvenile tastes, ala the chainmail bikini.

But I've never seen any game system that explicitly says women aren't equal. Ever. In fact, when gender comes up in game materials, the point is made that within the system, both sexes are equal. Most systems I've read make a point of stating that women characters are the equal to their male counteparts. It's possible that some historical settings may reflect the biases of the culture and discuss them, but to me that's in the interest of accuracy, and I don't think anyone who agrees to play in such a setting would worry about those biases being expressed in game terms. I've yet to see a system setting which isn't historical and which is biased against women.

So, show me one. I'm sure there MUST be some system which is antagonistic to women, or this column would have no basis in my mind, as I see it as a call for reform. First, you have to have something that needs reform. You can't have a revolution without a cause.

For the record, artwork is not a cause. The big tittied chainmale maidens are fast becoming passé, and I'm not buying the "women depicted as victims" hogwash when in fact, most gamers are young males who want to fantasize about rescuing hot babes, not hot babes who want to fantasize about rescuing stupid men. That's marketing, and we all know there is little substance to marketing.

I also do not want to hear anything about the social ills of male gamers, or anyone's experiences with misogynistic louts at cons, or stores, or at the gaming table. We already know they exist, and any mature adult can handle these idiots in appropriate and less appropriate ways as they see fit.

No, what I want to see is a system that tells me to go out and discriminate against women. The first two are really weak platforms for such a series of emotion-laden diatribes. They're only examples of a group of people you don't happen to like. Show me the system that tells gamers to go forth and downtrod a woman. While you're at it, show me one that says to go kill yourself, to go practice devil worship, and to kill your family. Nobody got around to showing me those games, either.

This isn't intended as a flame, just a reality check. If someone screams fire in a theatre, there'd better be a fire in the theatre. I honestly don't see the fire here except in incessant flame wars over minor issues.
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 Topics Author  Date
 Give Me Some EXAMPLES  
BrianB 07-20-2001 16:49 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
Trevor Barrie 07-21-2001 00:25 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-21-2001 02:21 
  A lame example  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-21-2001 04:37 
 Poor, ignored me.  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-24-2001 05:48 
 RE: Poor, ignored me.  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 09:55 
 I thank you, and my ego thanks you.  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-24-2001 13:07 
 An example of a different sort...  new
Alexander B. Grover 07-22-2001 12:43 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
Tiama'at 07-23-2001 06:34 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-23-2001 13:42 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
Tiama'at 07-23-2001 15:08 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-23-2001 17:36 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
Tiama'at 07-23-2001 20:51 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 10:18 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
Tiama'at 07-24-2001 12:21 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 15:01 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 15:03 
 Examples of the system  new
Tiama'at 07-24-2001 15:34 
 FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 07:03 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
Tiama'at 07-25-2001 08:55 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 14:07 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
EgoWumpus 07-25-2001 16:19 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
Allistor Preist 07-30-2001 14:57 
 Rather long winded.....  new
Lord Mortician 07-31-2001 07:42 
 Not really a response on my part...  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-31-2001 12:33 
 RE: Rather long winded.....  new
Allistor Preist 07-31-2001 13:42 
 Ethics, morals and more  new
Lord Mortician 07-31-2001 15:00 
 RE: Ethics, morals and more  new
Allistor Preist 07-31-2001 23:00 
 RE: Ethics, morals and more  new
Lord Mortician 08-01-2001 09:10 
 Generalities  new
Allistor Preist 08-01-2001 13:09 
 Perhaps.....  new
Lord Mortician 08-01-2001 15:26 
 The Lie  new
Allistor Preist 08-01-2001 20:45 
 ....Is one of malice  new
Lord Mortician 08-01-2001 22:56 
 typo  new
Lord Mortician 08-01-2001 23:03 
 Jaffe and Rein Hagen  new
Allistor Preist 08-01-2001 23:51 
 Feminism  new
NC 08-02-2001 02:55 
 Feminism (rather long)  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 09:49 
 RE: Feminism (rather long)  new
NC 08-02-2001 21:13 
 RE: Feminism (rather long)  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 23:03 
 3% Body Fat  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 01:10 
 RE: Jaffe and Rein Hagen  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 08:28 
 questions  new
Allistor Preist 08-02-2001 12:16 
 RE: questions  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 16:15 
 RE: questions  new
Allistor Preist 08-02-2001 19:09 
 RE: questions  new
Tiama'at 08-02-2001 19:55 
 Opinion and truth  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 21:50 
 RE: Opinion and truth  new
Allistor Preist 08-02-2001 22:54 
 RE: Opinion and truth  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 23:17 
 RE: questions  new
Allistor Preist 08-02-2001 19:09 
 And the article  new
Allistor Preist 08-02-2001 14:38 
 RE: And the article  new
NC 08-02-2001 20:53 
 RE: And the article  new
Tiama'at 08-02-2001 21:49 
 RE: And the article  new
Tiama'at 08-02-2001 21:51 
 RE: And the article  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 22:27 
 RE: And the article  new
Lord Mortician 08-02-2001 22:17 
 Clarification  new
Lord Mortician 08-03-2001 09:00 
 numbers  new
Allistor Preist 08-03-2001 22:00 
 RE: numbers  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 00:25 
 RE: numbers  new
NC 08-04-2001 02:07 
 RE: numbers  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 03:37 
 RE: numbers  new
Lord Mortician 08-04-2001 09:28 
 RE: numbers  new
Allistor Preist 08-05-2001 16:11 
 RE: Jaffe and Rein Hagen  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 00:29 
 RE: Rather long winded.....  new
theghost 12-05-2001 08:31 
 Well, mistah ghost...  new
NC 12-05-2001 20:18 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
NC 07-26-2001 20:32 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
Tiama'at 07-26-2001 21:21 
 RE: FEMINISM/GAMING QUIZ/TEST  new
NC 07-27-2001 12:55 
 One mor thing...  new
BrianB 07-23-2001 17:47 
 Adolescent female fantasies.  new
Rick Heney 09-07-2001 14:16 
 RE: Adolescent female fantasies.  new
caryn elizabeth mallard 09-28-2001 14:51 
 RE: Adolescent female fantasies.  new
HalloweenJack 04-06-2002 19:18 
 RE: Give Me Some EXAMPLES  new
theghost 12-05-2001 07:44 
 Examples aren't the issue  new
EgoWumpus 07-23-2001 10:54 
 RE: Examples aren't the issue  new
BrianB 07-23-2001 14:02 
 A few myths....and other things  new
Lord Mortician 07-24-2001 08:05 
 Legendary Wars  new
EgoWumpus 07-24-2001 09:01 
 RE: Legendary Wars  new
Lord Mortician 07-24-2001 11:59 
 RE: A few myths....and other things  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 10:13 
 Beefcake & manbreast inadequacy  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-24-2001 13:05 
 RE: Beefcake & manbreast inadequacy  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 13:26 
 RE: Beefcake & manbreast inadequacy  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-24-2001 13:42 
 RE: Beefcake & manbreast inadequacy  new
BrianB 07-24-2001 15:44 
 RE: Beefcake & manbreast inadequacy  new
Lord Mortician 07-24-2001 13:48 
 Ye Pendulum  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-24-2001 15:00 
 On the issue at hand..........  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 05:33 
 Talking of overreacting....  new
EgoWumpus 07-25-2001 08:44 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-25-2001 10:01 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 14:32 
 Marriage for love?  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-25-2001 15:18 
 RE: Marriage for love?  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 17:02 
 RE: Marriage for love?  new
NC 07-26-2001 20:57 
 No fair bringing in Georges Duby  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-27-2001 01:12 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
BrianB 07-25-2001 20:17 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Tiama'at 07-26-2001 00:02 
 Speaking of equality....  new
Lord Mortician 07-26-2001 05:24 
 One more thing......  new
Lord Mortician 07-26-2001 05:43 
 RE: One more thing......  new
EgoWumpus 07-26-2001 13:28 
 RE: One more thing......  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 06:10 
 RE: One more thing......  new
Tiama'at 07-26-2001 14:51 
 RE: One more thing......  new
Ascension Mage 07-26-2001 15:20 
 1890, Paris........  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 05:46 
 Sewing is inherently masculine...  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-26-2001 13:08 
 RE: Sewing is inherently masculine...  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 06:01 
 RE: Sewing is inherently masculine...  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-27-2001 11:24 
 RE: Speaking of equality....  new
EgoWumpus 07-26-2001 13:34 
 RE: Speaking of equality....  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 05:50 
 RE: Speaking of equality....  new
EgoWumpus 07-27-2001 07:31 
 Mr.Wampus….  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 08:11 
 RE: Mr.Wampus….  new
EgoWumpus 07-27-2001 08:31 
 A ceasefire and an idea  new
Lord Mortician 07-27-2001 09:25 
 A critique of the approach  new
The Archer 08-05-2001 09:07 
 Apologies for Tardiness  new
The Archer 08-05-2001 09:11 
 Germany  new
NC 07-27-2001 13:26 
 RE: Germany  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-27-2001 13:37 
 RE: Germany  new
NC 07-28-2001 02:56 
 Stuff happens...  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-28-2001 05:42 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Michael T. Richter 09-26-2001 20:19 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Patrick Ogaard 09-27-2001 01:17 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Michael T. Richter 09-27-2001 05:22 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Patrick Ogaard 09-27-2001 13:13 
 RE: Talking of overreacting....  new
Lord Mortician 07-25-2001 13:17 
 Toughies  new
NC 07-27-2001 13:17 
 RE: Toughies  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-27-2001 13:50 
 Presidents  new
NC 07-27-2001 13:19 
 One  new
Allistor Preist 07-28-2001 12:54 
 RE: One  new
NC 07-28-2001 15:22 
 RE: One  new
Allistor Preist 07-30-2001 10:57 
 RE: One  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-30-2001 12:04 
 Thanks for the clarification <NT>  new
Allistor Preist 07-30-2001 15:13 
 Glad to be of assistance <NT>  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-31-2001 02:21 
 RE: One  new
NC 07-31-2001 10:55 
 Have at you, you filthy peasant!  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-31-2001 12:36 
 Bang  new
NC 07-31-2001 21:07 
 You dastardly weasel!  new
Patrick Ogaard 08-01-2001 07:00 
 RE: You dastardly weasel!  new
NC 08-02-2001 01:46 
 Vengeance was mine, then. : -)  new
Patrick Ogaard 08-02-2001 04:42 
 culture  new
Allistor Preist 07-31-2001 12:52 
 RE: culture  new
NC 07-31-2001 15:56 
 #RE: culture  new
Singing_Smurf 08-07-2001 12:11 
 RE: #RE: culture  new
NC 08-07-2001 19:44 
 RE: One  new
Patrick Ogaard 07-29-2001 05:21 
 Wow! I totally forgot the prostitute chart...  new
BrianB 08-03-2001 21:42 
 RE: Wow! I totally forgot the prostitute chart...  new
Tiama'at 08-04-2001 08:55 
 RE: Wow! I totally forgot the prostitute chart...  new
Allistor Preist 08-04-2001 11:14 
 RE: Wow! I totally forgot the prostitute chart...  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 12:25 
 RE: Wow! I totally forgot the prostitute chart...  new
Patrick Ogaard 08-05-2001 03:54 
 Recent EXAMPLES? Anyone?  new
BrianB 08-04-2001 01:53 
 Current ones are pretty good  new
Tiama'at 08-04-2001 09:10 

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